the quixotic infidel

I've skimmed some modern apologetics defending...

2012-05-19T04:00:04.928-07:00

I've skimmed some modern apologetics defending the idea, so I imagine it is still taught. The apologetics sounded little different than young earth creationist crap.

Very interesting that j smith didn't originate the idea, but I shouldn't have been surprised. He seems so blatant in his plaegerism, but I think that is largely due to the fact that is lived and wrote more recently than say the ancient hebrews. But he was innovative on this point to make the lost tribes into scriptural dogma...

It's been pointed out that John has the money ...

2012-05-14T12:50:55.899-07:00

It's been pointed out that John has the money changers 'sitting' at tables, no mention of chairs, while Mark retains them, tables and 'seats'. Ehrman seems to still think John is independent.

"Why has Bart Ehrman done such an irresponsib...

2012-05-14T00:41:15.840-07:00

"Why has Bart Ehrman done such an irresponsible hack job at this stage in his career?"

Someone else (Thomas Verenna?) said that this seemed to be a book Ehrman didn't really want to write.

It's too bad. Ehrman could have written a smashing book on the subject, but if he'd put his usual thoroughness and skepticism into his research, I think he would have come espousing a position of agnosticism, closer to that of Robert Price. Especially if his debates, in which he constantly emphasizes how the Gospels are not remotely a reliable historical source, are anything to go by.

He's very pity .. grieving in everything.. the...

2012-01-11T16:53:30.286-08:00

He's very pity .. grieving in everything.. the sufferings wrapped into the fogs and darkness. T.T

Love it, Quixxy. Kisses on the wind. ~Tie

2011-09-30T00:22:23.940-07:00

Love it, Quixxy. Kisses on the wind.

~Tie

good heaven's your prolific;-) just caught up ...

2011-09-18T22:29:05.908-07:00

good heaven's your prolific;-) just caught up with your blogging a bit...

keep going,lovely to read;-)

You get to the heart of the Pauline mess here and ...

2011-05-04T10:49:27.944-07:00

You get to the heart of the Pauline mess here and I think, like so many others, that Acts is really the key to early Christian history -- but it is not a key that one can simply take at face value. It's a Potemkin village of a book, but one can get tantalizing glances through the windows at what might really be along the riverbank.

It's frustrating to see so many people accept at face value the Pauline claims about his Jewish credentials.

It is my understanding that the tribe of Benjamin didn't even exist after the 2nd century BCE. Is this single fact alone not enough to squelch any facile acceptance of Paul's assertions? The only reference I can find to anyone so identifying themselves after the return from Babylon is Paul.

So the terminology was fully engrained in the Hell...

2011-04-30T10:44:13.367-07:00

So the terminology was fully engrained in the Hellenstic world, especially in Alexandria, one would imagine.

This is a puzzling scene otherwise, isn'...

2011-04-29T14:29:55.845-07:00

This is a puzzling scene otherwise, isn't it?
But then, why wouldn't the author who just a few verses later vouches for the eyewitness veracity of his story not mention James by name? This would have put to rest all doubts about its authenticity. The fact that it was in question at all might indicate that they simply could not in the East have attributed the tradition to James —or even John—without the Western branch calling them out on it. It would have been too a grandiose claim .
If it IS james . . .
How did he go from "he whom J loved" (a term that, to my ears, does not sound "brotherly") status to simply "brother of the Lord"? At first glance, it it kinda calls to mind a Borgian (pre/post)-Easter thing.

Ó

"I'll end for now by pointing out that...

2011-04-29T07:31:57.112-07:00
"I'll end for now by pointing out that there is no mention of James in the Gospel According to John."

If James is the brother of the lord (Jesus), and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then it could be implied that the beloved disciple is James.

Look at John chapter 19:

25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

I don't see any reason why this scene was inserted into John's gospel, other than to make some sort of (adopted) familial connection between Jesus and the beloved disciple.

…ruled Egypt for 50 years after Alexander died.

2011-04-28T17:51:38.821-07:00
…ruled Egypt for 50 years after Alexander died.

As I recall, one of the Ptolemies was known as Pto...

2011-04-28T11:56:29.091-07:00
As I recall, one of the Ptolemies was known as Ptolemy Soter. Is that correct?

Wow, this is a very thorough case for a Hellenisti...

2011-04-11T20:57:22.573-07:00
Wow, this is a very thorough case for a Hellenistic source for Mark. Thanks for this.

Quintón; Tes, yes, and yes. All valid poi...

2011-03-28T10:43:39.234-07:00
Quintón;

Tes, yes, and yes. All valid points. Those are the kinds of indiscrepancies that Maccoby highlights.

As you can see from these recent posts about the Pauline communities, I'm finding it increasingly puzzling that people just don't see the obvious. I think cultural and academic entropy might be bigger factors in our perception than we realize.

Ó

I have some doubts that Paul was as Jewish as he c...

2011-03-28T10:11:09.617-07:00
I have some doubts that Paul was as Jewish as he claimed. Or, at the least, was lying about his Rabbinic (Pharisee) training.

In Romans 10, Paul makes the following argument:

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." (Isaiah 28:16)

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Joel 2:32)

Paul's argument here implies that the "name of the lord" that does the saving in Joel 2.32 is "Jesus". However, the entire book of Joel never once uses the word "lord", at least in Hebrew. All instances are actually HaShem: YHWH. In the LXX, however, YHWH is replaced with the word "lord" to avoid pronouncing the Name out loud.

So Paul must have been reading from a Greek version of Joel 2, and must not have been very well versed (if at all) in Hebrew. That Paul was a Hellenized Jew isn't much of a controversy, but I'm not sure why no one has put two and two together.

It's my understanding that the Pharisees were trained in Hebrew, and that Pharisaism was a distinctly Judean (i.e. non-diaspora) phenomenon. It's only after the 1st Jewish-Roman war that the Pharisees begin branching out, cementing Rabbinic (Pharisee) Judaism as the norm. This post 70 CE branching out of the Pharisees is why the Synoptic gospels have a caricature of them popping up everywhere Jesus goes before he even gets to Jerusalem. They are describing post 70 CE conflicts between nascent Christians and Jews retrojected to the time period of Jesus.

Anyway, I'm not sure any Pharisee would have seen the Torah as a curse (Gal 3.10,13), since Pharisaism was known for its liberal interpretation of the Torah due to the Oral Torah, or the "traditions of their fathers" (Josephus, Antiquities 13.10.6).

Lastly, there's the apocryphal Ebionite tale about Paul. How he was originally converted to Judaism to marry a priest's daughter and then regretted his decision (or circumcision) once she turned down his advances.

So those are my suspicions about Paul's own Jewishness. Who knows, maybe he lied about his Jewishness to be "all things to all men".

Maybe things like these are a reaction to
2011-03-25T11:47:22.994-07:00
Maybe things like these are a reaction to certain books published by other Christians?

Thanks for sharing this experience!

2011-03-25T08:43:20.102-07:00
Thanks for sharing this experience!

James D. G. Dunn's The Partings of the Ways...

2011-03-23T04:38:14.357-07:00
James D. G. Dunn's The Partings of the Ways looks at early Christianity in relation to these "four pillars" of Judaism. And you may find my The Only True God of interest on the question of the relationship of early Christianity to Jewish monotheism. Not necessarily persuasive, but at least hopefully interesting and relevant! :-)

Evan, it is probably that Jewish belief that resul...

2011-03-18T20:03:09.326-07:00
Evan, it is probably that Jewish belief that resulted in the variant readings. But not long after this, we find a dynasty of priest-kings establishing itself which could claim descent neither from Aaron nor from David.

Dr. McGrath, My understanding (I am not an exper...

2011-03-18T16:48:41.645-07:00
Dr. McGrath,

My understanding (I am not an expert in this area) is that 2 Maccabees 3:4 is not a reference to the tribe of Benjamin as understood by that term prior to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

"On the other hand, it is hardly admissible that Menelaus and Lysimachus should have been allowed to officiate as high priests if they were descendants of the tribe of Benjamin, as II Macc. iii. 4 (compare iv. 23, 29) seems to indicate; it is much more probable that the name "Benjamin" in this place is due to a copyist's error, and the passage should read: "Simon was of the [priestly] tribe of Miniamin," if "Bilgah" is not the proper reading."

Quixie,

Your questions are indeed more crucial. I just find that with these things so often the devil is in the details, and investigation usually leads to very little that is other than "received wisdom".

I'm still trying to figure out why it's such a historical certainty that Jesus didn't have an identical twin, but so historically certain that he had a brother named James.

Evan; I think some other, more crucial questions ...

2011-03-18T11:01:36.644-07:00
Evan;

I think some other, more crucial questions might be:

Are there any extant texts from the Judaism of the period which purport to use midrash to announce that Judaism has been essentially superseded and is now obsolete?

Are there any examples of the Temple establishment ever having violently persecuted those who disagreed with it theologically?

Another that is not related to the epistles, per çe:

Given that the literary record shows that the establishment, rather than hand over its people to a conquering power that demanded them (for whatever crime said subject had committed), would instead consistently do its best to protect and harbor them and attempt to deal justice "in the house," … what made Jesus' case so special that they decided to buck this long tradition? Are there examples of this ever having happened before?

The answer to all three is, of course, "not unless you count Paul's letters" (the gospels in the third case).

Ó

Why does it have to be an author mentioning himsel...

2011-03-18T10:22:48.347-07:00
Why does it have to be an author mentioning himself? Without that arbitrary stipulation, presumably 2 Maccabees 3:4 will do?

Are you aware of any extant texts besides the epis...

2011-03-18T08:57:39.131-07:00
Are you aware of any extant texts besides the epistles in which the author refers to himself as being of the tribe of Benjamin that date from the second temple period through the second century CE?

Only if you count Paul's letter. :-)

2011-03-17T17:06:26.492-07:00
Only if you count Paul's letter. :-)

Dr. McGrath, I'm curious if there are extant r...

2011-03-17T15:05:39.197-07:00
Dr. McGrath, I'm curious if there are extant rabbinic discussions that took place in the Greek language in the second temple period or in the late first or second centuries CE.

the quixotic infidel

I've skimmed some modern apologetics defending...

It's been pointed out that John has the money ...

"Why has Bart Ehrman done such an irresponsib...

He's very pity .. grieving in everything.. the...

Love it, Quixxy. Kisses on the wind. ~Tie

good heaven's your prolific;-) just caught up ...

You get to the heart of the Pauline mess here and ...

So the terminology was fully engrained in the Hell...

This is a puzzling scene otherwise, isn'...

"I'll end for now by pointing out that...

…ruled Egypt for 50 years after Alexander died.

As I recall, one of the Ptolemies was known as Pto...

Wow, this is a very thorough case for a Hellenisti...

Quintón; Tes, yes, and yes. All valid poi...

I have some doubts that Paul was as Jewish as he c...

Maybe things like these are a reaction to
2011-03-25T11:47:22.994-07:00
Maybe things like these are a reaction to certain books published by other Christians?

Thanks for sharing this experience!

James D. G. Dunn's The Partings of the Ways...

Evan, it is probably that Jewish belief that resul...

Dr. McGrath, My understanding (I am not an exper...

Evan; I think some other, more crucial questions ...

Why does it have to be an author mentioning himsel...

Are you aware of any extant texts besides the epis...

Only if you count Paul's letter. :-)

Dr. McGrath, I'm curious if there are extant r...

the quixotic infidel

I've skimmed some modern apologetics defending...

It's been pointed out that John has the money ...

"Why has Bart Ehrman done such an irresponsib...

He's very pity .. grieving in everything.. the...

Love it, Quixxy. Kisses on the wind. ~Tie

good heaven's your prolific;-) just caught up ...

You get to the heart of the Pauline mess here and ...

So the terminology was fully engrained in the Hell...

This is a puzzling scene otherwise, isn'...

"I'll end for now by pointing out that...

…ruled Egypt for 50 years after Alexander died.

As I recall, one of the Ptolemies was known as Pto...

Wow, this is a very thorough case for a Hellenisti...

Quintón; Tes, yes, and yes. All valid poi...

I have some doubts that Paul was as Jewish as he c...

Maybe things like these are a reaction to 2011-03-25T11:47:22.994-07:00 Maybe things like these are a reaction to certain books published by other Christians?

Thanks for sharing this experience!

James D. G. Dunn's The Partings of the Ways...

Evan, it is probably that Jewish belief that resul...

Dr. McGrath, My understanding (I am not an exper...

Evan; I think some other, more crucial questions ...

Why does it have to be an author mentioning himsel...

Are you aware of any extant texts besides the epis...

Only if you count Paul's letter. :-)

Dr. McGrath, I'm curious if there are extant r...

Maybe things like these are a reaction to
2011-03-25T11:47:22.994-07:00
Maybe things like these are a reaction to certain books published by other Christians?