Mythicism, the notion that the Jesus legend might be better explained as a composite hero myth than as a biographical phenomenon— that it might be a fabric more likely woven together from syncretic strands of Mediterranean and Near-Eastern esoterica rather than from historical memory— is an idea that has resurfaced in the cultural landscape following the publication of the works of a handful of scattered writers like Earl Doherty, Robert M. Price, G. A. Wells, Hermann Detering, and a few others. It is not a new notion; all of these scholars would acknowledge their debt to those now-forgotten scholars who sought to free historical New Testament scholarship from the vise grip of ecclesiastical dogmatism during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries using their (then) newly acquired historico-critical muscles. Once the Enlightenment had safely established the scientific paradigm as the new, preferred standard of learning and investigation to aspire to (logic replacing faith as the ultimate arbiter of truth), it was only a matter of time before the new methodologies would start to be applied to Holy Writ itself. At the time, scripture had been that which had vouchsafed the authenticity of the traditions of the ubiquitous Christian religion for eighteen hundred years. What secrets might a new scientific examination of these ancient texts reveal?
This question prompted the birth of the “higher criticism” (a.k.a. ‘historico-critical method’). In the post-enlightenment period, as inquisitive minds (Baruch Spinoza, Friedrich Schleiermacher, Christian Hermann Weisse, David Friedrich Strauss, etc.) began to engage these texts from a deductive, historiographical perspective, one requiring a temporary “willful suspension of belief” in the name of methodological honesty and neutrality, their resulting reconstructions were often very offensive to scholars and to the clergy of the time, who were quick to denounce them. People tend to get a bit grouchy when their sacred cows are taken out of their glass cases and examined too closely, so despite the diligent and exhaustive work of Strauss and Schleiermacher and those who followed their lead, it could only meet with resistance from both the church and the academy … at first. The stodgy piety and decorum of that bygone era served to ensure that the conclusions reached by the historiographic probings of these men into the origins of the Bible and of the Christian religion would be categorically shunned and reviled by their conservative peers, who were still mired in their devotional, superficial approach to the study of the Bible’s details. Among the shocking new revelations of these higher-critical scholars were:
If that wasn't enough, along came the Dutch Radical school. This group saw no reason to authenticate any of the Pauline works and discredited the lot of them. Some thought he went too far, and he had indeed gone further than anyone had before him, but when Bruno Bauer argued for the spurious nature of all the epistles, he was using pretty much the very same lines of reasoning that Baur had used to discredit Philippians, Ephesians, et. al. The Dutch school would even eventually be as audacious as to bring into question the very historicity of Jesus and of the disciples. As radical as the idea may be, if it turns out that the Pauline corpus is entirely spurious, then we in fact posses no primary sources to inform historiographic speculations on any of it. This prospect is a disturbing one for those who would base their theoretical constructs on the basic reliability and historical trustworthiness of the New Testament narratives. Bauer was crossing a kind of asymptotic line that no one had ever dared to cross before, not even Baur, who, when he came to that cliff edge, was compelled to stop by his religious sensibilities. Bauer, on the other hand, dove in with aplomb.
- The fact that the Pentateuch could not have been the work of a single, historical Moses. At least four individual scribes, or "schools" (for lack of a better term), spanning several centuries, were responsible for its compilation.
- Similarly, the book of Isaiah, was demonstrably a conglomerate of at least three different schools.
- Mark, contradicting church tradition, was likely the earliest of the gospels in the New Testament to be written.
- At least several of the epistles attributed to Paul were very probably the late pseudonymous products of an emerging ecclesiastical structure.
These proverbial elephants in the middle of the room (and some others) were simply too big and too spooky for those who had authority over the parlors of the time to look at. They continued to denounce and mock those who strayed from the long-established axioms concerning the provenance and authorship of the texts, but one can only ignore an elephant for so long. It took a few generations for the usefulness of this new hermeneutic to slowly take hold, but it inevitably did take hold, and as time passed these scholars' ideas became progressively more and more accepted as valid and even as the normative interpretation of the evidence. After a great deal of exposition, dialog, and debate of the details involved, academic consensuses were eventually arrived at concerning many things which had previously believed to be otherwise. Indeed, the ideas of Strauss and later Bultmann would become the fundamental presuppositions that scholars now use as their starting place in their own investigation and analysis of these texts, even to this day. To be sure, consensus is not always arrived at, but in each of the cases I listed above, at least, after various kinds of higher criticism (redaction-criticism, textual-criticism, form-criticism, and source-criticism, among others) were applied to the pertinent texts, the consensus on these matters, though not universal (it never is), is fairly overwhelming.
With time, the conclusions of some scholars became more and more radical. F.C. Baur would found a school of thought in Tübingen that embodied this historiographic hermeneutic. If the religionist academic hierarchy found it difficult to accept Schleiermacher's opinion that Paul might have written neither of the Timothies, it was absolutely horrified when Baur suggested that out of the thirteen epistles traditionally ascribed to him, only four (both Corinthians, Galatians, and Romans) could be seen as possibly the authentic work of a historical Paul. The others could be shown to reflect a second-century synthesis of this Pauline core of four with a hazy Palestinian tradition which we know almost nothing about (its texts did not survive but we can at times see some vestigial traces of this sect in the texts that did survive).
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| F.C. Baur |
This was shocking. There is a big difference between on the one hand boldly pointing out that the chronology of the gospels as traditionally taught was wrong, that the gospel we know as Mark's very probably came first, and on the other suggesting that we have no primary sources whatsoever or that Jesus very probably is primarily a mythic construct. One could accept the former without it affecting one's religious commitment in the least. But to accept or to even consider the latter ideas would require, at the very least, a complete re-examination of the interrelationship between the Christian scriptures and the Christian faith they purport to historically support. In fact, the resistance encountered by the ideas of the scholars of the Tübingen and of the Dutch Radical schools was directly proportional to how mythologizing they were. Marcan priority, while an audacious idea at first, was not threatening to the faith itself, and so could reluctantly be brought up for discussion and debated without the awkwardness that the more radical ideas of Bauer produced, for example, while the idea that Jesus didn't "exist" (at least not in the way we have been taught to think he did) was ignored out of hand as a ludicrous proposition, not worthy of serious consideration. Anything that suggested the basic fictive and tendentious and syncretic aspects of the narratives got the silent treatment. The matter was never engaged, never discussed in any real depth, never debated in history departments. Simply cast aside as ludicrous from the outset, no thorough critical academic evaluation of the ideas of the Tübingen and Dutch Radical schools seems to have been conducted. Is it any surprise, then, that so few 'refutations' were written?
Albert Schweitzer, who was personally acquainted with a few of the radicals, seems to be one of the only contemporaries who took these scholars seriously. He mentioned many of them in his classic The Quest of the Historical Jesus, and even devoted whole chapters to Strauss and to Baur. Curiously, while he openly disagreed with the Tubingen school and with the Dutch Radicals, he nevertheless praised their rigorous and meticulous methodologies and obviously thought very highly of them. He respected them and considered them scholars par-excellence. Unfortunately, the focus and scope of Schweitzer’s volume did not allow for a full engagement with the arguments of these radicals concerning the Pauline corpus and the historicity of Jesus. Only a cursory summary is sketched, and in the end, he considered their conclusions to be reactionary and ideologically based, and he went on to put them in what he thought were their proper respective places in the history of historical Jesus studies. At least he acknowledged them, though, which is more than any of his contemporaries had done, and which also evinces his own particular brand of iconoclasm.
The few semi-scholarly works devoted to the "refutation" of mythicism that were penned in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth were effectively polemical over-simplifications misrepresenting the arguments in a way intended to make then seem ridiculous, or else they were exercises in circularity, or were both simultaneously. (I may address some of their specific errors as they arise in future posts in this series —this is the first post, in which I focus on mythicism as idea non grata; I focus on the gag reflex that is almost invariably the scholar's first encounter the Christ Myth. Other posts will follow as time allows. Suffice it for now to say that very little unimpassioned or non-polemic scholarly discussion has been advanced to refute the Christ myth theory.)
This is doubly frustrating. On the one hand, I’m sure that many people (I, for instance) would love to read any collection of such point-by-point refutations. On the other hand (here I finally arrive at my main point), by some unfortunate lapse in logic, the long silence the hypothesis engendered has been now co-opted by apologists, who conveniently misread it as if it were evidence of some kind of tacit agreement within the academy that the hypothesis has been discredited. The silence of a stumped room of startled exegetes has over the decades become misinterpreted as the silent ruling of some imaginary consensus. To insist that this silence is a vindication of the standard position by default, however, as some do, is an invalid and premature projection. Is there such thing as an expiration date on an ignored proposition which would render it invalid after a time? Is there a statute of limitations on the discussion of theories? An eternal green room?
That a majority of New Testament (or any other kind) of scholars have never considered that the dearth of primary sources makes the biographical legend dubious at best—that they accept the historicity of Jesus a priori — is unquestionably true. But to call this unexplored assumption a "consensus " is a glaring equivocation, a clear example of a semantic fallacy (also a variant of the etymological fallacy), where the precise meaning or implication of a word or phrase is disregarded (consciously or not) in favor of its more casual, every-day usage. Another example of this fallacy is the common use of the word "myth" to express the idea of a falsity. In an academic sense, the word "myth" denotes a complex of interrelated symbols and stories which informs the self-identity and cultural inheritance of a given people. In modern lay parlance, the word simply means "fairy-tale," or worse, "lie." Similarly, the word "consensus" in an academic sense denotes a position commonly held by an authoritative body, a viewpoint arrived at and agreed upon after the examination of the pertinent facts has been undertaken.
Are most New Testament scholars Christian?
Yes, by far. I think most do self-identify as such.
Do most of them believe that Jesus was born miraculously of a virgin?
Most of them? … Hmm … Possibly.
Do they believe that Jesus miraculously rose from the dead on that first Easter morning?
Yes, almost universally.
But are these beliefs "consensus views" just because most scholars defend them? No. They are the creedally accepted foundational axioms of a religious community, for which there is no way to determine historicity (even if these miracles really did happen!). These things have not been (cannot be, not with the texts we have to work with, at any rate) empirically demonstrated; they are simply givens. It is very important to note this distinction. A consensus is not just a majority view. Consensus implies more than passive acceptance of a given, it implies reasoned agreement after the rigorous examination of evidence. To make this a bit more clear, consider that something like 90–97% of Americans believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was not the only shooter involved in the murder of JFK in 1963. The majority is overwhelming (frustratingly so to those who have studied the matter soberly and honestly). The consensus, that reached, for example, by the Warren Commission after careful systematic investigation of testimony and evidence, is that Oswald, acting on his own that day, shot three bullets at the presidential motorcade, two of which hit their intended victim. The distinction between these two widely divergent positions should be noted.
Yet there are those who still regrettably appeal to this kind of paper-doll “consensus.” It is often the frontline defense in a rejection of mythicism, sometimes the only one. I’m afraid that this kind of methodological leap is symptomatic of the troubling state of affairs in the field today, where arguing from an authority— in this case no more than a perceived authority—an embarrassing blunder in any scientific discipline, is given a free pass in biblical studies. Interestingly, some academics now even specialize in this sort of superficial head counting and statistical analysis in their professional work, meticulously graphing the trends in the literary output of New Testament scholars, categorizing their works individually and collectively by how they rate on a linear scale, with strict orthodoxy at one extreme and skepticism on the other. In this way they try to show that the orthodox position on any given matter is not only plausible, but normative, and therefore preferable by default.
Relying on a consensus is bad enough, to be sure, but when the consensus is just an imaginary one to begin with … well … that’s erring twice over, a puzzling phenomenon to encounter in a field that purports to be an academic enterprise. This is the sort of scholarly behavior that Hector Avalos explores in his The End of Biblical Studies, a scathing critique of the currents underlying modern New Testament scholarship (Philip Davies is another vocal critic of such practices). Then, to add insult to injury, backed by their paper-doll consensus, many "historicists" (for lack of a coined term) adopt a haughty, mocking, downright insutling attitude toward the scholars who have exhumed these long-ignored ideas of the Tübingen and Dutch Radical schools, dusting them off for public perusal once more. Whenever I encounter invective language in any academic argument, a little alarm goes off in the back of my head, something like a big yellow sign on a swervy road warning me: 'CAUTION! - PASSION AHEAD.' If cogent arguments were being offered up, instead of the over-simplifications that are, I could understand frustration turning into insult. Where there should be coherent arguments against the ideas presented, I see field of such flags, and I will maintain that there would be no need for this rancor if the theory was not seen as a personal affront somehow.
Despite vehement opposition and prejudice, in this less-than-welcoming climate, the new mythicists have appeared on the scene, undaunted, representing the scholars of old, giving the lie to this paper doll ‘consensus,’ and reminding us that the riddles and inconsistencies in the texts, the same ones that once led the old Tübingen and Dutch radicals to advance their appalling ideas, are still glaringly there, and are still as unexplored and as glossed over as ever.
To be fair, though, in closing, let me now admit that more monographs are sorely needed (on both sides of this question). Until mythicism can be expressed more cogently than it has been until now, until detractors stop with the silent treatment, the mockery, and resident scorn, this issue will continue to be the posturing dance of egos that it currently is. Let me also now admit that I fully agree that some of the frustration and rancor felt toward a certain variety of infantile cyber-clandestine uninformed trolling on the internet is indeed very much deserved, and I truly empathize with those sentiments. I myself recently had an awkward encounter with one of these cyber-souls. Unfortunately, this is the internet, where everybody and their proverbial mother can wax authoritative without having read any substantive, truly scholarly works on this (or any other) subject. But let me stress that it would be a great mistake to not discern the wheat from the chaff in this case It would be a great mistake to throw the whole mess into the flames. To categorically consider anyone who might think that mythicism is a plausible scenario to be reprehensible, or laughable, or crazy, or anti-scholarly, or what-have-you, solely on their sober acceptance or defense of that historical possibility would be to do a great disservice and an insult to many truly honest, dutiful, able, conversant, diligent, sophisticated, nuanced, credentialed, insightful, and honorable scholars of the past and of the present, who at the very least deserve the respect of their peers.
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(*** I consider the "consensus" argument to be made essentially of nothing more that straw and bravado. In future posts in this series, I hope to engage some of the more substantive arguments against mythicist thought, particularly some points raised by Greg Boyd and by John Dominic Crossan, who i think have fairly coherent objections that rise above the scornful and/or simplistic mischaracterizations and other sundry reactionary barbs that are usually thrown at mythicism, This is not a series in which I will lay out the mythicist case myself, my intention is instead to address specific objections to it. Anyone interested in acquainting themselves with the main trajectories in mythicist thought should read the work of Earl Doherty and of Herman Detering, who are probably the most exhaustive modern exponents of the Ideas of the Tübingen and Dutch Radical schools. Their respective bibliographies should be used as a springboard for further research.
Finally, online, a four-part podcast series by Zachary Moore lays out the case fairly well.
Happy reading/listening!) :)
Finally, online, a four-part podcast series by Zachary Moore lays out the case fairly well.
Happy reading/listening!) :)






As I have said before, I do hope to offer further interaction with some classics of mythicism. But if the heart of your position is that most New Testament scholars affirm the miraculous conception and physical resurrection of Jesus as historical facts, then all I can say is that, once one gets outside of conservative Christian circles, it is not my experience that that is the case. And that the only way you can explain away the consensus is to deny it is a genuine scholarly consensus and pretend it is an axiom of faith suggests to me that, if we are to really make any progress in discussing this topic, you will really need to read what modern atheist, other non-Christian, and Liberal Christian scholars have written about these topics.
ReplyDeleteMcG:"… if the heart of your position is that most New Testament scholars affirm the miraculous conception and physical resurrection of Jesus as historical facts… "
ReplyDeleteIt isn't at all. The heart of my position is that, in order for an opinion (majority or not) to rightly be called a consesnsus, it must be engaged, discussed, debated. In other words, merely being a majority opinion does not a consesnsus make.
McG: "And that the only way you can explain away the consensus is to deny it is a genuine scholarly consensus and pretend it is an axiom of faith …"
Either I didn't explain myself as clearly as I would have liked, or else you misunderstood me. At any rate, I do not assert that defending the historicity of Jesus is an axiom of faith.
I used the virgin birth and resurrection as examples only to illustrate that majority opinions have no bearing on the veracity of an idea. I realize that plenty of secular, Jewish, Hindu, liberal (or whatever) scholars accept historicity for Jesus. The point, again, is not that it is an axiom of faith, but that even these scholars hold to this opinion not through examination and debate, but as a default position. It is the acceptance of a "given," something they've not given that much thought to.
"Until mythicism can be expressed more cogently than it has been until now..."
ReplyDeleteOne of the biggest reasons that such cogency has not yet been achieved - aside from the sheer magnitude of such a goal for a position like Jesus mythicism - is that the position has so many adherents who desperately want this mythicism to be true. As a result, they establish a very low threshhold for evidence required to believe the theory. Thus mythicism never gets the chance to build its muscles. Therefore it's not the scorn of the scholarly community that is your obstacle here; rather, it's the uncritical acceptance of your admirers.
As I read your timely, interesting article I, too,
ReplyDeletefelt you are not in touch with current liberal,
radical liberal or metaphorical Christian thinkers.
-Tom Harpur who see Jesus as a symbolic, not flesh and
blood construction grounded in ancient Egyptian religion.
Jesus is to be "followed" as symbol of the divine spark within spiritual energizer.
- Bishop John S. Spong who, somewhere, describes Jesus
as myth-encrusted and thus vunerable to scholars who
deny he even existed. Thus Jesus lived but is hidden
somewhat by the myths that exalt him literally to highest heaven. More importantly Spong, for me, has the correct idea of
the resurrection, probably the same as held by earliest
New Testament writings. Paul's and not the canonical gospel. Here Jesus is projected as truly risen
but spiritually as a real presence, as celebrated in
the early breaking of bread and sharing of the cup
liturgy. The gospel flesh and blood resurrection
stories are myths probably faith historicized. Stories for popular consumption. As such wildly successful.
Marcus Borg advocates Christians today treat the
Gospels in a metaphorical, non-literal way. Thus,
the road to Emmaeus story is another beautiful
imaginative description of the first Christians'
experience of a resurrected, more alive than ever,
Jesus in their midst, probably once again especially
in the gathering of Christians to drink the cup and
break the bread of remembrance.
Dominic Crossan, who I think still adheres to the
healing historical Jesus, and really gives a modern
historian's view of New TEstament content. Of coarse,
like those above, he sees the Resurrection, in the
final analysis, a matter of faith. Thus, as Martin
Luther and St. Paul would say, belief/relationship
with the risen Christ is itself a gift from God - pure
grace through faith. Dominic seems me to push the
historical Jesus envelope. The trial passion story
is central to all 4 gospels. From the arrest of Jesus
to the death on the cross and for faith on to the resurrection. If I understand Crossan correctly (See
Crossan's Who Killed Jesus?) he sees the early
Christians greatly exaggerating the passion story.
Lots of drama there but little history. Lots of
Old Testament prophecy and stories brought forward to
explain the meaning of the passion. See
Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. Perhaps all that happened to
the real Galilean stir-it-upper was summary condemnation by Pilate, expedient nailing to a cross
and being heaved on some garbage heap for the dogs....
It would be nice Jesus had a decent burial (fit for a
king as per John's gospel) but in the face of Roman wrath, Pilate a meany
par excellence, and the get me out of here cowardice
of Jesus followers, I would have to think Crossan once
again has hit the nail on the head.
In your very insightful (and extremely well written) piece on the sham of traditional scholarship's "consensus" case against Jesus mythicism, you say:
ReplyDelete"Suffice it for now to say that very little unimpassioned or non-polemic scholarly discussion has been advanced to refute the Christ myth theory. This is doubly frustrating. On the one hand, I’m sure that many people (I, for instance) would love to read any collection of such point-by-point refutations."
You won't find any such collection per se, but my Jesus Puzzle website contains an exhaustive article (in three parts) presenting a rebuttal to all the major and minor (mostly the latter and mostly only as parts of books on wider subjects) refutation cases of the 20th century, from Shirley Case in 1912, through Maurice Goguel in the 1920s, to Robert Van Voorst in 2000. This pretty well presents those "point by point refutations." It begins at http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/CritiquesRefut1.htm
Later than that article, apologists Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd tackled mythicism fairly extensively in their The Jesus Legend. That effort I dealt with in my new book "Jesus: Neither God Nor Man".
Earl Doherty
Dear Quixie,
ReplyDeleteI think your article touches on an important issue. You may be realizing that what we call "Bible scholarship" and/or "the religion industry" is really a subset of Christian apologetics. While they try to appear like scientists, using reason, and methods we often see in science, the material they produce is tailored and self limited so that they do not appear to be disproving basic Christian supernatualistic dogma. It is a very subtle distinction, and it may not be understood by the beginner in the study of the subject, but it becomes more clear as one studies the subject more.
If you read Noam Chomsky's _understanding power_ you can learn a bit about the basics on how an industry self governs itself. You don't have to tell a CBS news caster not to say certain things. you simply set up a process where only certain types of people will eventually become major spokesman for CBS, and the folks that want to reach that level will learn the unspoken rules, and will abide by them if they want to reach the highest levels.
It is the same thing in the academic religion industry. Certain topics are taboo, and if you address them you don't get to participate in the industry. Take for example Robert M. Price. Price became involved in the Jesus Seminar BEFORE he had an established teaching tenured position. Sort of at the beginning of his career. And to this day, Bob is pretty much unable to get a job teaching NT studies and any university. Anyone that knows Bob, knows that his knowledge of the subject is good, and broad, and he has all the degrees required to teach in the industry, but he has never been able to attain a position. I would submit that he has in effect been shunned by the industry, because he has broken the unwritten rule of what can be written about. Now, John Dominic Crossan was also a member of that group, but his participation came after he was well established in the industry, so his story is different.
I think that if you look closely at the industry you will find that it sort of works like this. You can write and are encouraged to write on topics. But you are not supposed to even write on subjects that question a few of the fundamental beliefs of Christian members. You can for example, write that the virgin birth is a later legendary addition, because of number of Christian groups believe this as part of their faith. But, you cannot write that there was no actual Jesus, since not a single Christian faith group holds this view, and your writing would offend ALL christian believing groups.
The industry encourages articles that appear to be "scientific", or "scholarly", or use "reason" (that became popular since the enlightenment), but they must allow for the Christian member to read your article, and not be threatened in the basic supernatualistic assumptions of Christian dogma.
So you don't have to be like the apologists of old, but it is still apologetics. It is if not encouraging, at least not dispelling the supernaturalistic dogma's of the Christian member. You are expected to write in a way that will allow you to shine intellectually, and allow the Christian member to have things to think about, but you are not allowed to directly dispel the Christian members acceptance of the supernatural. You always have to leave enough wiggle room, so that no matter what you write, the Christian member can incorporate your "academic" information into the most basic of Christian supernaturalistic beliefs.
Cheers! RichGriese.NET
Actually, there is a bifurcation in the Christian industry that Rich Griese describes: liberal and conservative. The fault line is seen in book publishers and seminaries as well as in churches. The liberal side disbelieves all sorts of things in the Bible that the conservative side believes. If the mythicist viewpoint cannot get traction in that side of the industry it is a sign of how weak its argument truly is.
ReplyDeleteMike Gantt: " … the position has so many adherents who desperately want this mythicism to be true. As a result, they establish a very low threshhold for evidence required to believe the theory."
ReplyDeleteI would agree that there is a subgroup of ill-informed reactionary type of trolling mythicist for whom the threshold is indeed quite low, (I even said so in my post already and gave an example) and I think they are indeed a nuisance, but I think that it is not difficult to discern the wheat from the chaff. Anyone reasonably genuinely versed in the topic can see the trolls coming from a mile away.
Moreover … is not the opposite charge also true? (i.e. that the position that Jesus as described in the NT certainly existed has so many adherents that WANT it to be true that THEIR threshold is very low)?
Anonymous
ReplyDeleteQuite the contrary, of the four gentlemen that you cite above, I have had the enormous pleasure and honor to meet three (Spong, Crossan, and Borg) and I am quite familiar with their work.
I don't disagree that the original authors of the NT saw the resurrection in a metaphorical sense. It seems to me that while you still hold on to Paul as an anchor, you accept the fact that the portrait of Jesus in the four gospels is a mythological composite with little to no bearing on historical or biographical veracity (correct me if I am wrong).
However, the pauline corpus is just as spurious as the gospels are, as the DR demonstrated long ago.
And if that's the case, then we have no primary sources regarding any of this. At the very least, this calls for some sober reflection.
Thanks for taking the time to comment at length.
peace
Ó
Certainly.
ReplyDeleteThus you must look past the "easy" believers on either side and see that historicists have taken many punches and are still standing, yet the mythicists can't even seem to qualify for the ring.
If you want to disbelieve Jesus of Nazareth, there are more credible ways of doing so than claiming He was a myth. No disrespect, but it's just an absurd position to hold.
Earl Doherty:
ReplyDeleteI have read most of the "refutations" (I called them "semi-scholarly" in the post) that you referred to in your comment.
I more or less agree with your assessment of them (I've read some of your essays in which you engage them).
I have read Eddy and Boyd's books on the topic, and on a future post, I will specifically elaborate on some of their stronger points, which I think are not too difficult to refute. Their critiques rise above the rancor and mockery that usually characterize "arguments" against the Christ Myth, at least, and I respect that.
While I must confess to not having read your latest book . . . (it's at the top of my list) I look forward to reading it soon. (I HAVE read your previous one, and found it to be very illuminating.
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment here.
Ó
RichGriese.NET:
ReplyDeleteThank you for your lengthy comment. I think you touch on some important points there, especially regarding the tendency among religious scholars to want to appear empirical in their apologetics.
Incidentally, I owe you $10.
;)
Ó
Mike Gantt: "…Thus you must look past the "easy" believers on either side and see that historicists have taken many punches and are still standing, yet the mythicists can't even seem to qualify for the ring.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to disbelieve Jesus of Nazareth, there are more credible ways of doing so than claiming He was a myth. No disrespect, but it's just an absurd position to hold."
Hmm . . . have "historicists" really taken many punches?
Can you give us some examples of any "punches" thrown their way? Which historicists? Punched by whom? (Please be as specific.) This seems like a straw man in the making to me, but I would like to know what you mean by this analogy.
As to "disbelieving" in Jesus …
I think you misunderstand me. I am a great FAN of Jesus. Jesus need not be historical to be a tremendously influential personality in my life. Not to be flippant, but I don't need Holden Caulfield, or Atticus Finch, or Nigger Jim, or even Gilgamesh to have literally existed in order to glean ethical insight or wisdom from their characters (THAT would "absurd"). I pretty much subscribe to the teachings contained in the parables of Jesus. As such, your comment seems a bit glib.
But it's all good.
peace be with you
Ó
I didn't make my comment glibly at all. As I said, I meant no disrepect and I will add that I made it soberly and in all good faith. I am genuinely mystified that very intelligent people (like you, Neil Godfrey, and Earl Doherty) put so much effort into building a case that has so little evidence commending it.
ReplyDeleteAs for punches taken, the entire conservative wing of Christian historical scholarship has been pummeled repeatedly by liberal Christian historical scholarship often in league with secular popular media. The most recent examples being Bart Ehrman and Dan Brown. You guys may feel estranged from Funk, Crossan, Theissen, etc. but you are natural allies in resistance to the simply historicity of Jesus and the reliability of the New Testament. However, this is really not what I want to discuss with you.
I'm more interested in your attraction to Jesus' teaching. On the one hand, I'm quite pleased to hear it. On the other hand, I'm assuming you mean that you are attracted to the horizontal dimension of His teaching but not the vertical dimension. If that assumption is wrong, please correct it. If it is right, please tell me how you find the seam in what seems to be a seamless point of view?
Mike, so you weren't talking about historicists taking punches, but fundamentalists ("conservative scholars").
ReplyDeleteBut great post Quixie, looking forward to see the rest of them.
Mike Gantt said... "I am genuinely mystified that very intelligent people (like you, Neil Godfrey, and Earl Doherty) put so much effort into building a case that has so little evidence commending it."
ReplyDeleteI can only speak for myself. If I allow for the possibility (nay, probability) that the Jesus legend is essentially a beautiful parable about the nature of "god" (whatever that metaphor might mean to you), it is because I have read F.C Baur, and D.F. Strauss, and W.C. Van Manen, and Hermann Detering, and Darell J. Doughty, and G. A. van den Bergh van Eysinga, and Robert Price, and Earl Doherty (etc) and have been persuaded by their evidence and argumenmts that this is at the very least a plausible conclusion to come to.
Two possibilities here:
1- You have also read the works of these gentlemen, in which case, the correct course of action would be to offer counter-arguments for their claims instead of denying that there is evidence.
or
2 - You have not read the work of these gentlemen,which begs the question: On what grounds do you assert that they have no evidence? I assure you, there is plenty there. You remind me of the ostrich who, seeing the tiger approaching, reacts by submerging his head in a hole in the ground, figuring that, since he can't see the tiger, the tiger is no longer there.
Besides that, in turn, I am mystified that intelligent people like F.F Bruce, Clark Pinnock, and N.T. Wright can in all seriousness believe that every detail in the Bible is literally true, and spend so much time formulating harmonizations of the many discrepancies and contradictions contained therein in order to uphold their worldview. Hell, I am even mystified by the fact that Robert Price, who I otherwise consider a most capable and insightful exegete, a brilliant man, doubts that there is a direct correlation between global warming and human industry. Join the club!
I agree with the Christian mystic, Meister Eckhart, who once said, "What is truth? Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside from it, I could keep to the truth and let God go."
As far as your boxing analogy goes… I think Hjalti is right in pointing out your equivocation. I would leave it at that, except that the rest of what you said about it perplexes me … to put Dan Brown in the same category as Bart Ehrman is simply ludicrous. It shows that you don't really discern between the attributes of people that you choose to disagree with (they are simply all apostates!). Similarly, saying that John Dominic Crossan or Gerd Thiessen or Bob Funk deny the historicity of Jesus makes me strongly doubt that you know what you are talking about at all.
Mike Gantt said... "I'm assuming you mean that you are attracted to the horizontal dimension of His teaching but not the vertical dimension. If that assumption is wrong, please correct it. If it is right, please tell me how you find the seam in what seems to be a seamless point of view?"
I can't really answer your question or correct you if you are wrong, for the simple fact that I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Horizontal? Vertical? Diagonal? Oblique? Perpendicular? Seam? Seamless? It seems to me that you have perhaps borrowed a metaphor from some favorite book or something, and are assuming that I will be familiar with this kind of terminology. Rephrase it if you really are interested in knowing what I think about what you are trying to describe by that, please.
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Dear Quixie,
ReplyDeleteLOL regarding Bob Price and global warming. I once spent a good deal of physical time together with him. We lived in connecting towns I would see him at least once a week sometimes more. So... I got to know him more than just on his christian history level. And it always cracked me up that while he had kicked the fundamentalism of his yougth, he still never kicked the right wing republican views that often go with it. So your comment about his views about global warming made me laugh.
I will have more to post on the of the legends of jesus, and academia, but for the moment, I just had to comment on the global warming thing. Big LOLs.
Cheers! Rich Griese
Quixie said..."I can't really answer your question or correct you if you are wrong, for the simple fact that I have no idea what you are talking about here. Horizontal? Vertical? Diagonal? Oblique? Perpendicular? Seam? Seamless? It seems to me that you have perhaps borrowed a metaphor from some favorite book or something, and are assuming that I will be familiar with this kind of terminology. Rephrase it if you really are interested in knowing what I think about what you are trying to describe by that, please."
ReplyDeleteSorry. Thought I was using a self-evident metaphor. Jesus taught about how we as human beings are to relate to God (that's the vertical dimension) and how we are to relate to each other (that would be the horizontal dimension). I assume you don't believe in God and therefore wouldn't be interested in the vertical dimension of Jesus' teaching. I was inviting you to correct me if my assumption is wrong. If my assumption is correct, I was asking you to help me understand how you draw the line between between what He teaches about relating to humans versus what He teaches about how to relate to God because the two seem inextricably interwoven to me.
Let me be clear: I'm very happy that you appreciate Jesus' teaching. I'm just trying to understand in what sense and to what degree you appreciate it.
Hjalti said..."Mike, so you weren't talking about historicists taking punches, but fundamentalists ("conservative scholars")."
ReplyDeleteNot everyone would agree with your equating "fundamentalists" with "conservative scholars." Even using your definitions, however, are they not a significant subset of historicists?
Quixie:
ReplyDeleteRe: The proponents of mythicism and your challenge to me. That's a lot of reading you seem to be requiring of me before you think I can legitimately dismiss the likelihood that Jesus was mythical. I've read some of Doherty, Godfrey, and Price - enough to, in my mind, make a fair judgment. However, for you, I will read more. Only point me to a reasonable summary because life is short.
Re: the Eckhart quote. Not only can I appreciate the value in that sentence, I think God could, too. I have never been interested in religion - it was attachment to the truth that led me to faith in Jesus.
Re: My lumping together of Ehrman, Brown, Crossan, Funk, and Theissen. I didn't at all mean to suggest that all these people think the same things. My point was to say that what they have in common is they they each, though in varying ways, chip away at the reliability of the New Testament documents. You may see huge differences between a mythicist and a minimalist - but in practical terms, at least from my perspective, the outcome is the same: little or no faith in little or no Jesus.
Having problems entering my most recent comment, I keep getting an error message so I have added it here
ReplyDeleteCheers!
Mike Gantt said... " … how we as human beings are to relate to God (that's the vertical dimension) and how we are to relate to each other (that would be the horizontal dimension). I assume you don't believe in God and therefore wouldn't be interested in the vertical dimension of Jesus' teaching. … "
ReplyDeleteThanks for rephrasing.
Like I said previously, I think there is much wisdom to be gleaned from the parables attributed to Jesus.
The dichotomy you present here between teachings regarding relationship to god and those regarding relationship to humanity is, in my opinion, a false one. The way I read it, implicit in the story of Jesus is the radical notion that the way we interact with our fellow humans IS the way by which we relate to god. There is no need to posit an x-axis or a y-axis there because there is no difference between the two. To put it aphoristically: it is my view that the central teaching in the narrative is the idea that the kingdom of god (Jesus' favorite metaphor) manifests itself in our lives every time we love our fellow humans. This of course requires some semantic unpacking of terms like "god," "kingdom," and "love," but I think you probably get the gist.
You assume I don't believe in god. This reminds me of the time some evangelists came to my doorstep one morning and asked me if I believe in the Bible. I said, "Believe in it?? … Why … there one right there!!," pointing to the well-worn leather-bound KJV cradled in his left hand.
Do I believe in god?
Yes, in several different ways. Humans have formulated many ways with which to describe the creative and/or numinous aspects of this universe we are a part of: Yahveh, Baal, Odudua, Vishnu, etc. Of course I believe in god(s). They appear in the folklore and the history of every human culture that I can think of and they are all describing the same idea. I have studied a few to some degree. They are fascinating to me from an ethnological perspective.
If you are wondering if I am a devotee of any one of these gods specifically, however … I think that the closest that I come to that sort of thing would be the god of Spinoza, though I observe no religious liturgy of any kind. I see no need to.
I hope that answers your question.
Mike Gantt said... " … Not everyone would agree with your equating "fundamentalists" with "conservative scholars." Even using your definitions, however, are they not a significant subset of historicists? … "
Hjalti was exactly correct in calling you out on your equivocation.
The right and honorable thing to do is to accept that you made a semantic error there, instead of trying to nitpicking your way out of it. (just my 2¢)
- continued below -
Mike Gantt said... " … Re: The proponents of mythicism and your challenge to me. That's a lot of reading you seem to be requiring of me before you think I can legitimately dismiss the likelihood that Jesus was mythical … "
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no. Go back and re-read what I said. You don't have to read anything at all to dismiss the likelihood, but you do have to do some reading if you keep insisting that there "is so little evidence commending it." Should I have been as reluctant or unwilling to read N.T. Wright, or Richard Bauckham or Augustine of Hippo (or Meister Eckhart for that matter) because "life is short"?
Mike Gantt said... " … My point was to say that what they have in common is they they each, though in varying ways, chip away at the reliability of the New Testament documents. … "
First of all, Brown is a writer of detective novels. Your placing him in the company of the fine scholars on that list is insulting. It only reveals your misguided need to divide the world into an "us" and a "them," regardless of any given individual's specific contribution. I would advise you to stop doing that.
Secondly, I understand that from your evangelical perspective any interpretation that strays from accepting the basic reliability and literal veracity of the scriptures seems to be "chipping away" at it. However, the conlusion that those scholars (all of whom I respect, Brown notwithstanding) were arrived at by using the methods of hitoriographical research which would be applied to any ancient text. The evidence is what it is. (Mind you, NONE of these men is a mythicist, incidentally).
Question: Is it your opinion that it is malice that guides their reasoning? — Some secret (or explicit) yearning or desire to discredit the traditional orthodox adherence to literalism? If so … I think that is a very mean-spirited projection.
Mike Gantt said... " … You may see huge differences between a mythicist and a minimalist - but in practical terms, at least from my perspective, the outcome is the same: little or no faith in little or no Jesus. … "
There ARE huge differences between a mythicist and a minimalist. If that is not clear to you, then I suggest you adjust your perspective.
It doesn't bother ME at all that Jesus is probably a (beautiful) mythic construct. If the prospect bothers you, then I suspect that it is because it offends you religious commitment to a specific (and in my opinion, narrow) tradition.
Finally, I find it very humorous every single time that I hear an evangelical tell me that they are not interested in religion (you are by far not the first person to do so). It is a particularly funny — not to mention a dishonest — tactic.
AS this has already strayed WAY beyond the topic of the original post (i.e. tha vacuousness of the "consensus" argument against mythicism), let me invite you to comment instead on my next post, which will consist of a single simply-worded question, one that I feel you are particularly qualified to answer.
peace be with you
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Rich: I read you post . . . again . . . I don't disagree. Thank you for taking the time to elaborate.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, I had the same error message . . . I resolved the issue by simply splitting the comment into two separate comments . . . if that happens again . . . just try doing that.
cheers
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